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Author Topic: ok what do you think?  (Read 9003 times)

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Offline Tony

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ok what do you think?
« on: August 15, 2008, 19:28:47 PM »
ok so a few years ago i set of to win a bet

the bet was, i couldnt make an auto as fast as manual, also i have some friends who are unable to drive manual

so i built my xr4i,
the inside and out side are standard, the engine was changed to a totaly standard 24v with auto box
but changed the torque converter. car was not stripped at all. totaly standard wieght.
add the heavy wheels (215/45/17)

at ford fair last year i had a sprint with sidibear (fsoc)
sidi  9.+
me  8.13 secs.

on video you could see we lost some time due to our launches. extimated to be 1 sec.
more real times
sidi  8sec+
me  7.13 sec
this seems to prove the torque converter is an advantage.....

since then i changed the dif ratio and also swapped the box for a lower milage box,, also found a good launch method..

this year i got to ford fair and done the same,

0 to 60  in 6.71 secs.
this does prove the torque converter and lower dif ratio is a dam good improvement

now i figure i can get even better but i am now in a fix, if i change the setup to get to sub 6.5 secs, its going to spoil the setup i have. it will be ideal for the next step or very close to ideal.

so do i carry on??????

or have i proven the auto is as good or better than manual to 60mph.

what i am asking really is has anyone acually got a provable time that beats 6.71 in a sierra 24v un boosted, no cam changes or No2 (bear in mind my time was at ford fair and i have the ticket as proof)

tony
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 19:33:09 PM by maddoldbugger »



the 24v xr4i auto-0 to 60 in 6.71 secs

Offline TwinTurbo

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ok what do you think?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2008, 20:26:44 PM »
To give a fair comparriosn you would need to compare cars with the same diff ratio.

TT

popuptoaster

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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2008, 20:30:58 PM »
i sort of assumed autos were faster in a straight line anyway once you get engines with a decent amount of power, the full power faster gear changes more than make up for the power loss through the torque converter.

dunno who you were betting with but i guess they never been drag racing and seen all the automatics there. :D

manual will murder an auto round the bends though.

Offline Tony

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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2008, 20:32:28 PM »
popup,,,not any more they wont

the 24v xr4i auto-0 to 60 in 6.71 secs

Janspeedcapri

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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2008, 20:35:18 PM »
Tony, iwanted to say this a while back but worried I'd anoy you so didn't...but this time, you have asked the very specific question so I will  
As we know, Car manufacturers make auto and manual versions of many cars - the manuals are faster - we know this cos they test them and publish the results. This has a lot to do with the fact that manuals have more/better ratios to alow the driver to keep the engine on the power band - IF the driver is good enough to change at the right time. Also, the manual driveline is less soggy and transmits more power to the wheels, faster, more directly. What you have proven is that the person you were up against either had less power (you didn't dyno them first i'm guessin), more weight OR he changed gears at the wrong revs. get a professional racing driver in the manual and you would likely have been left for dead. hope you don't find this offensive mate
 

Offline capri v8 driver

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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 20:38:09 PM »
most stock automatics use more power than a manual, and are heavyer than a manual, thats true. and less control over the gearchance. all in favorit off a nice comfy ride like the manufactures want it to be.

but most manuals cannot switch gears as fast as a decent setup automatic, and when a automatic switch gears, the power stays on. whit a manual, every time you press the clutch pedal, there is no power to the wheels. use the right torque convertor thats suits the "karaktor" off the engine, and its clear who is gone win this bet. and this is one off the reasons why i still use a automatic in the blue capri v8. in drag racing, the automatic is still the way to go. a other reason why i still use the automatic is it capable to handle much more power than a manual. and in term off money, a decent prepped automatic, with the right torque convertor is still cheaper than a decent build manual.

so tony, it seems you have won this bet. and i dont think there will be much sierra's whit a stock 24v, full dressed, manual capable off beating that 0/60 time.

looking on all the work you did to it, i think your almost at the limit. if you want to go faster, i gues it means compromise in something, either speed (lower ratio) or a less weight off the car. if you dont want to compromise, put the blower back on, bob cams, intake ect. (i still miss the little devil smilie)

top job tony.

greetz paul.

capri v8 driver.

ps: are you coming this year to european ford event?

dont forget your passport. hehehehe.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 20:46:19 PM by capri v8 driver »
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

Offline Tony

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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2008, 20:41:29 PM »
not at all chap
no point in dyno as we know the engine is stock so 195bhp
your correct in most of what you say''
but the auto box is a compromise, it has to pull away smoothly the only way to do this is to have the torque converter "stall" well below the power band, i have ajusted that., i have worked out the best place for it to stall and hookup without wheel spin (in the dry)
after pulling away, an auto should always be better as it doesnt disengage gears, simply pulls all the way,,
so it out wieghs the losses.keeps the engine revs at the very best.

tony

the 24v xr4i auto-0 to 60 in 6.71 secs

Offline TwinTurbo

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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2008, 22:10:34 PM »
When I had my volvo T5 the owners reconed that the Auto was quicker in reality than the manual up to about 70.

You just kept ya foot planted and it stayed on boost all the way..

TT

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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 22:32:06 PM »
I agree auto are quicker in the hands of amateurs like us - I had a six speed manual on my Audi S4 and i still got beat once or twice by lesser cars when i missed a gear/fucked up the launch. Auto is idiotproof - thats why they triumph now and again.

Look at it this way - I'll name you half a dozen manual PRODUCTION cars that can go sub 3 seconds if you can name me ONE PRODUCTION auto (not semi or "clutchless manual" that goes under 4  

Offline Tony

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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 22:35:51 PM »
i have also added a few odd bits,
i have added a sort of sports mode and i can kick down with out full throttle now, so can change down for corners,

tony

the 24v xr4i auto-0 to 60 in 6.71 secs

popuptoaster

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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2008, 22:46:39 PM »
If manual gearboxes were faster then all the top fuel drag cars would use em, but they dont, they may be seriously modded but they are still autos.

mark

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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 23:20:20 PM »
i would get it timed on a good set of timing gear not what thay youse at fordfair

Janspeedcapri

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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2008, 01:41:02 AM »
Quote from: popuptoaster
If manual gearboxes were faster then all the top fuel drag cars would use em, but they dont, they may be seriously modded but they are still autos.

Top fuel dragsters don't use gearboxes of either kind. They run a 5 plate clutch and thats it mate - direct to a differential with manual locking. The clutch is set to slip while the rear wheels "fight eachother" till the driver releases the diff (off ya go), no gears to change. The engine in a top fueler does less than 600 revolutions on a run from light to light...reaching about 8500rpm but only taking 4.44 seconds to complete the run (schumacher, current world champ)

Offline capri v8 driver

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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2008, 06:35:39 AM »
top fuel dragster whit 5000 or more hp, i dont think any gearbox can handle that, and whit the torque they make, you dont need a gearbox anyway.

but if we go back the the " lesser" dragsters, whitch use a gearbox, the most use a automatic. even if it is just a 2 speed.

as for the semi or "clutchless "manual" most off them are automatic, only ferrari and vw (dgs box) builds a manual that have those peddle's to shift.

greetz paul.

capri v8 driver.
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

popuptoaster

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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2008, 10:18:35 AM »
i thought they still used autos on the big ones, guess im a bit out of date! lol

IansSaph

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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2008, 10:40:28 AM »
Quote from: capri v8 driver

as for the semi or "clutchless "manual" most off them are automatic, only ferrari and vw (dgs box) builds a manual that have those peddle's to shift.

greetz paul.

capri v8 driver.

alfa Romeo Selespeed is a manual box with electrical and hydraulic gubbins to make it auto or semi auto, 04 plate onward is a manual with paddles the earlier ones just had buttons on the wheel.

Off topic i know but there!  

If you want to drive an Auto then fair enough you've turned it into a viable option. Good Job.

Janspeedcapri

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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2008, 11:22:32 AM »
off topic i know but a few fact that made me go "ooh" was that top fuelers run around 65psi from their S/C - takes 400bhp just to turn it    it takes longer to read THIS sentence than it takes the thing to cover a quartermile lol. AND they pull upto 8 G!! AND burn more fuel per second on full chat than a jumbo jet!! costing an all inclusive $2000 a second! AMAZING STUFF INIT lol

popuptoaster

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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2008, 15:06:20 PM »
The Aston Martin paddle shifts are proper manuals with hydraulic shifters on em fot the gears and clutch, i know this cos me mate took it all off to use the box as a manual in an escort.

Offline Tony

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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2008, 19:01:19 PM »
well i can honestly say non of this helps.yeah some dragsters use auto..ok. yeah other production cars might be faster,


i did ask if a 24v sierra non boosted can better my time, i dont really expect to be sat here with the fastest time but i think for an auto mine isnt to bad.

the 24v xr4i auto-0 to 60 in 6.71 secs

Offline capri v8 driver

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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2008, 19:11:31 PM »
Quote from: maddoldbugger
i did ask if a 24v sierra non boosted can better my time, i dont really expect to be sat here with the fastest time but i think for an auto mine isnt to bad.

i already gave you a answer in post 6.

greetz paul.

capri v8 driver.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 19:12:07 PM by capri v8 driver »
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

Offline tiff

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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2008, 20:55:24 PM »
I think you have more than proved your point. job well done

Offline Heiki

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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2008, 22:28:37 PM »
Hey Tony

What stall converter do you use, from what car/engine I mean.
I have been looking at different ones on us e-bay but not sure what will work the best.
As you might know I use my car for 201m drag and with a stall speed of appox 1600-1700rpm
I sure could need another one...

Janspeedcapri

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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2008, 00:09:42 AM »
tone, about equal power...
 I would remind y'all that not all engines are made equal(you all know this I'm sure). Some come off the production line better than the one before or the 235 that come after - you get some that are almost a "blueprint" engine and perform better. I don't know what the variables are in the manufacturing process but there was a saying about "friday" jobs thats kind of what i'm talking about.      
Then you have the subsequent life between manufacture and your sprint event - your rivals engine may have been identical performance wise when new but lost some because of higher milage or bad maintenance etc - hell, he could of been running thicker oil, old leads and plugs or cheaper fuel, or a million other things that could have meant he had less power on the day. I notice your quite a trim fella - maybe you had a weight advantage  

My final poiints -
Serious dragsters don't use transmission - the rest use whats available and if your car runs a bigblock thats likely to be an auto.
Launching - Your preloading method helped you loads but A guy in a manual could use heal and toe, or even the handbrake to hold the car on biting point, to preload the driveline and get off the line as quick - most don't resort to this cos they know that it will shorten component life.
ARE AUTO BETTER THAN MANUAL FOR 0-60? generaly no i don't beleive they are BUT on the day, between you and your competitor in the sprint at FF, YOURS was - well done indeed mate

Offline Taps

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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2008, 08:20:07 AM »
Interesting read  

I think Tony has more then proved that with adjustments its possible to get a 24V auto down into the 6's 0-60.

I have seen a manual 24V 4x4 of similar rating doing 6.5's a few years back at Ford fair.

I don't really see how you can compare between 2 cars my self, there's just to many factors to take into account other then like for like cars. As with all these things the time can be bettered, you can go all out changing bits to get a fast 0-60 but then have feck all after or lose out higher up , so times don't really mean feck all.

As for Tony, you proved your point m8, well done.


Remko GT

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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2008, 15:23:22 PM »
I think I'd rather be a bit slower than drive an auto  
JK m8, good job proving them wrong.

Offline Tony

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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2008, 18:22:10 PM »
well at the end of the day my auto can run the same ish figures as manual,
gez thats enough i think its not about what you like or what other auto's are like or do. other cars has bugger all to do with it.
and as for how you drive on the day! well that doesnt matter ether drive as fast as ya like, changining gear costs you 0.6secs and that ya cannot avoid,
the fact is its as fast as manual or there abouts, taps has driven the car so his comments are a true reflection of it,i did ask for like for like times but all i got quotes about other cars.

this is topcats xr4i ?( really nice it is to), notice its AUTO! this is what we where talking about

any way, now i am to plan the next step
convert this


to fit this


the 24v xr4i auto-0 to 60 in 6.71 secs

Offline Leebay

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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2008, 19:00:34 PM »
Nice........never seen a fully size pic of the engine bay of your old car   get 2 of everything made up then you can supercharge my rs for me while I`m busy buying stuff on ebay.

Well done on your sprint time btw.......I`ll be round for more tea and thunderbirds soon  


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Cylinder head Repairs/skimming, Engine|Brake|Suspension|Service components, Number/show plates & Custom stickers.

Offline mouldytbags

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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2008, 19:03:06 PM »
how about fitting that kit to the 4i next to yours in the picture?

Janspeedcapri

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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2008, 19:42:38 PM »
Quote from: maddoldbugger
changining gear costs you 0.6secs and that ya cannot avoid,

with the power to weight ratio you both had, going from 0 - 60 with ONE gear/ratio costs you MORE I'll wager.
You got the very best out of your car that day - micheal schumacher couldn't have bettered it - because the auto alows you to easily exract its best performance - it does it automticly, hence the name   . Asuming your oponents car had the same power and weight in his manual (and no faults), BUT Micheal schumacher was driving, you would have lost...trust me - you took the skill out of lauching tony...and your engine didn't miss a beat - thats why you did well....autos are slower than manuals CAN be but quicker than manuals often are because of the skill required to perform the optimum run to 60. Anyway, as Enzo Ferrari said - Its not how fast you go - its how you go fast  and you go fast with ease  

Offline Tony

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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2008, 20:56:09 PM »
Micheal schumacher  wouldnt beet me, he is used to what is almost an automatic gear box as used in F1.

 i disagree, auto can and does keep the engine revs at the ideal speed,all the time, pulls even when changing gear, manual takes more skill to get the spot on BUT even if you do,, its not pulling while you change gear that cannot be avoided,, the few bhp lost in the auto outwieghts that easy.
i know of people who cant get below 5.5 secs due to two gearchanges before 60mph, given the same power i could potentioaly,
but
i guess we should agree not to agree

the 24v xr4i auto-0 to 60 in 6.71 secs

 

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