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Author Topic: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?  (Read 4744 times)

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mcvicar99

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Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« on: February 04, 2013, 21:56:06 PM »
Hi folks I am embarking on fitting a cosworth 2.9 into my 1972 Reliant Scimitar in place of the essex 3.0.
I wondered if anyone has any pointers on the wiring of the engine (its a BOB) are there any diagrams ? ,should i go the Megasquirt route ,i love the idea of pluging in the laptop!!
I have the loom but quite a bits missing ,i was going to make up a loom from scratch and was happy to build it as thats my day job and i have the expertise but not sure on the PATS
stuff until i have had a chance to study it.I have an ECU but not sure what type
I am fairly up to speed on the gearbox options and the brake upgrades but finding the right kind of electronic data is proving difficult .
Ideas gratefully received .
Vic



Offline capri v8 driver

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2013, 08:13:01 AM »
If you dont have all the bits and pieces for the bob loom and engine, i would go for a aftermarked ecu.
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

Offline Dave

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2013, 12:29:39 PM »

Have a look here
http://www.fordpower.org.uk/forum2/index.php/topic,10121.msg70584.html#new

Still work in progress that thread but already useful.

Depends what build date your parts are from but basically you need an orginal key, the ring sensor thing around the ignition barrel, the pats module that matches the key/car & ECU.

Then you need the edis module for the spark, vacuum control for the VIS (varible inlet) & some wiring to join it all up LOL!

The ECU also controlled the auto box so you need to give the ECU some dummy loads for your pre-tend auto box too.

Or

Aftermarket ECU, edis module & VIS vac control.
Dave

mcvicar99

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2013, 21:59:05 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts ,aftermarket  ecu looks to be the route.

Offline Dave2302

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2013, 10:01:08 AM »
Hi,

Nice one, that's the engine the Scimitar shoud have had in the beginning  ;)

Look at the thread in General Discussion, (raising funds for 24V Manual ECU).

We could do with another 5 pledges and we'll get the Def file done..............

Then we can set up your Stock ECU to suit your vehicle  ;)

That way you'll not need Aftermarket ECU and RPM Window Switch for the VIS...........Cheapest way £600

If we can get another 5 guys on board then it'll only cost you around £100 plus whatever the tokens are (expected to be £20 - £30), to add an extra ECU onto the software at the time of flashing.

Should have this up and running by the time your car is done  ;)

Cheers Dave
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Offline capri v8 driver

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2013, 10:16:12 AM »
You forgot, he only has the engine, not the rest of the loom and sensors, ignition ect.

So looking at the cost, a ms v2 would be a beter (cheaper) option and the ms can control the VIS. If he ever wants to chance the engine agian, lets say, a v6 duratec or maybe a v8, he can re-use the injection parts and ecu for the new engine.
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

Offline Dave2302

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2013, 10:27:49 AM »
Hows that Paul, I cant see it ?

Megasquirt £400 plus, plus custom loom, AFM etc

EECV is a far better ECU once we can flash it.

Secondhand BOB Scorpio Loom, AFM ECU & EDIS say £100 - £250

def file hopefully £100 each between 10 of us (we already have 6 on board), and I've now personally purchased all the software, hardware and Mongoose lead to reflash any separate PATS type BOB ECU, (all of them except the very late and mythical 1998 ECU with built in PATS), that none of us have ever seen  ;)

Cheers Dave
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mcvicar99

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2013, 18:12:14 PM »
Hi all
Well engine turned up ,gosh its nice
Also a somewhat hacked loom ,it has the connector for the ecu and to the engine ,
The engine is complete and unmolested with the EDIS coil and all the ancilleries
I managed to find and study the diagram for the EEC-IV ,to get some idea of the arrangement Ford dreamt up
The ecu is a EXAM type ,there was no PATS module or keys and what-not
I think with it fitted and running nice the car should be just right.
I am quite interested in the reprogramming that you chaps are looking to fund ,i need to get to the end of the month before i can commit to anything or the dog starves.
Not having the right bits to make the system work may scupper some of the options  but i do appreciate the replys and ideas......................................
Vic

Offline capri v8 driver

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2013, 19:38:28 PM »
Hows that Paul, I cant see it ?

Megasquirt £400 plus, plus custom loom, AFM etc

EECV is a far better ECU once we can flash it.

Secondhand BOB Scorpio Loom, AFM ECU & EDIS say £100 - £250

def file hopefully £100 each between 10 of us (we already have 6 on board), and I've now personally purchased all the software, hardware and Mongoose lead to reflash any separate PATS type BOB ECU, (all of them except the very late and mythical 1998 ECU with built in PATS), that none of us have ever seen  ;)

Cheers Dave

If you have some electronics skills you can buy a un-assembled kit: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MegaSquirt-PCB3-ECU-Fuel-Injection-Injector-EFI-Kits-/330866640495?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item4d0930466f

$212.00 thats 133 pounds.

Assembled $444,- thats 279 pounds.

Wiring loom is $ 85,- (53 pounds) and you can re-use the sensors you already have. Software and updates is free, so is the forum, where you can find files for your engine.

moates stuff:

'F3' Ford Memory Adapter $60,-  
BURN2 Chip Programmer' $85,-
FA Ford Module Programming Adapter $10,-

Or a Quarterhouse $ 249,-

Binary editor with dongle  $160,-

Eec Editor for tuning, depending on ecu, $25,- to $35,- adons are extra.

The DEF and DLM File price ??????

The ms is maybe a few quit more expencive, however, like i said. If he ever wants to chance the a different engine, you dont need to buy stuff again, nor does he need to buy files. And you have more ecu functions and options
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

mcvicar99

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2013, 22:08:32 PM »
Hi the megasquirt kit looks like its got the capabilitys ,building it is easy for me .
I am hopefully putting the car on the road on wednesday if it passes the MOT ,i can sell the pug 406 estate i run about in and free up some cash that will probobly end up in the fuel tank
but that means its all one step closer  ,like any old car  every mile it does means something goes wrong and the four miles its done so far have seen the brakes fail catastrophically the exhaust manifold fall apart and engine develop a misfire after ingesting brake fluid ,so its all work in progress
I just love those v6 burbles ,had a mk1 3.0 capri  about 25 years ago and this is as close as i can get,with the added bonus thats it sort of like a kit car and modding it is easier

Offline Dave2302

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2013, 02:38:10 AM »
He doesn't need Moates stuff or BE Paul, as I have all that, all it takes to come on board this project is a payment of £100 - £200 depending how many people end up contributing, and that's to pay for the creation of a custom def file by an experienced pro.

After that the only other payment is a token (expect £20 - £30) to register his ECU onto Binary Editor softare, and the cost of postage to and back from me to have it flashed.

I agree that the MS can be swapped to different engines, but no way is a MS ECU better than EECV ECU in terms of its power and capabilities.

Anyway, good luck with the project whatever you decde to do  ;)

Cheers Dave
It's nice to be important but
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Offline capri v8 driver

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2013, 08:01:51 AM »
To get the best tune for your car, you still need to put the car on a rolling road.

Correct my if i am wrong, to make any chances to the programming he now needs to send the ecu to you because his ECU is registered to your copy of the Binary Editor software?

This would means he only has a re flased ecu but he cant make any chance to suite the programming to his car without you do that for him.

And you cant do that without having the car on a rolling road to see the result of your chances in the programming.

I agree that the EEC ecu is a much beter quality ecu in terms of relialibility, but in options and power? No, not really.


greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2013, 09:47:09 AM »
1)    To get the best tune for your car, you still need to put the car on a rolling road.

2)    I agree that the EEC ecu is a much beter quality ecu in terms of relialibility, but in options and power? No, not really.

1)    We are talking standard or near standard engine here, so a couple of bins one improved for a bog stock, and one for say decent intake and exhaust is all that would be needed.
Remember EECV is Airflow based so even some heads and cam work will be accomodated in the fuelling and ignition tables..............That's why SCT, Superchips etc etc sell chips or programmers with better than stock tune in them.

2)     Comparable to EECIV not really but no way does it come close to EECV............MS has 56k Flash Memory EECIV has 56k, but EECV has 2 bank 112k up to 4 Bank 256k..................Then there's the processor speeds and a whole host of other differences.............

Anyway, I'm not selling EECV ECU's, I'm only trying to generate interest in a Ford Power Community project, which is for the benefit of all using N/A BOB Engines, MS is the "easy route" atm, but not the best, so I'm outta here  ;)

Cheers Dave
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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2013, 10:29:06 AM »
1)    To get the best tune for your car, you still need to put the car on a rolling road.

2)    I agree that the EEC ecu is a much beter quality ecu in terms of relialibility, but in options and power? No, not really.

1)    We are talking standard or near standard engine here, so a couple of bins one improved for a bog stock, and one for say decent intake and exhaust is all that would be needed.
Remember EECV is Airflow based so even some heads and cam work will be accomodated in the fuelling and ignition tables..............That's why SCT, Superchips etc etc sell chips or programmers with better than stock tune in them.

2)     Comparable to EECIV not really but no way does it come close to EECV............MS has 56k Flash Memory EECIV has 56k, but EECV has 2 bank 112k up to 4 Bank 256k..................Then there's the processor speeds and a whole host of other differences.............

Anyway, I'm not selling EECV ECU's, I'm only trying to generate interest in a Ford Power Community project, which is for the benefit of all using N/A BOB Engines, MS is the "easy route" atm, but not the best, so I'm outta here  ;)

Cheers Dave

Its very difficult to read

I said:

Quote

I agree that the EEC ecu is a much beter quality ecu in terms of relialibility, but in options and power? No, not really. 

You also have take in account that not everyone drives a puma, sierra or scorpio, but uses the bob in other car, witch can have other tyres sizes, diff ratio's, weight and so on. You need to tune the ecu not only to the engine it self, but to the hole package, even if the engine is bone stock.

So its not 1 file fits all cars.
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2013, 18:47:32 PM »
So now they need live mapping and not rolling road then  :unsure:

If an engine is giving maximum torque then it's tuned to it's best.

Cheers Dave
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Re: Cossy 2.9 into a Scimitar from scratch........ ideas?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2013, 19:53:40 PM »
Quote
So now they need live mapping and not rolling road then

My understanding of a rolling road is that you strap your car on it and test it. The data you get tell you if everything is fine or you need more tuning of the parameters to get everything right. So yes, live mapping on a rolling road is the best option. A good rolling road operator can tell you what to chance (or he does it him self) to get the best outcome for a certain goal.

Quote
If an engine is giving maximum torque then it's tuned to it's best.
 

Yes and no. It all depence on what purpose you use the car. Racing requers a different tune that a road going car. A really good tuner can set up a car for each different track or driving conditions. Example, a road going car that has its torque setup at a very high rpm is no fun to drive on the road as most driving is done at a lower rpm. On the track however, thats a different story.

You must also realize that the tune ford gives his street going cars are not performance oriented, but for reliability and environment reasons these tunes are very mild. 
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

 

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