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Author Topic: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.  (Read 15932 times)

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Offline Dave

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2013, 22:55:32 PM »
It's a GT3582 going from Dave's advice.

And for Dave: I went on a drive to day and wrote up the boost.

RPM vs Boost

2000  0.2
2250  0.3
2500  0.4
2750  0.5
3000  0.7
3250  0.8

Cheers mate

Turbo does spool as I predicted then & that also shows you had a problem on the dyno.

It spooled very late which is either a jammed open/sticky dump valve or wastegate problem usually.
Yours is annoying as it obviously don't do it all the time!

You can see here if you stick your boost onto the graph.



Torque barely picks up when engine should be on 12 psi of boost.
Looks like it hit 12psi a good 1000rpm + later.

Now look at you boost (RED) compared to say the GT2252's on my Minker (BLACK).
It's not far behind is it so you would expect it to be a similar torque curve.



So the torque curve you should have ended up with would be very close to the Minkers.
What a difference!
Also note I have added a STD BOB curve, you can see your engine didn't really do anything until around 3200rpm which is another good way to problem shoot a dyno run.




Going to be an awesome road car when it's sorted  ;D :mellow:
Dave

Offline cossiemk2

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2013, 23:45:10 PM »
Well Dave you know what you're talking about.

I suspect I have a dodgy BOV so I'm gonna blank that off. Again as I fitted another one but that started venting as well above 0.5 bar.
I'm also thinking of taking the wastegate signal not from the turbo but just before the intake just i case the IC will drop the boost.

It still is a killer to drive but somehow during the build I lost boost as I could each 1.3 bar at 3300 Rpm with the bleed valve so maybe my wastegate is knackered. It was an eBay knock-off.

Offline capri v8 driver

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2013, 09:10:35 AM »
So i guess we will see your Capri too this time ?

Its in pieces because its getting a new and bigger 7.0l engine and i have i kinds of upgrades in mind like fuel injection, 4x4 and IRS for more grip for a beter drivability. Its all very time consuming as i have to created and build most parts my self.
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

Offline Dave

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2013, 10:48:43 AM »
Quote
It still is a killer to drive but somehow during the build I lost boost as I could each 1.3 bar at 3300 Rpm with the bleed valve so maybe my wastegate is knackered. It was an eBay knock-off.

In theroy a single GT3582R with a .63 turbine should spool just behind a pair of GT2252's.
The difference being your loose some exhaust energy with the single turbo otherwise it would out spool the GT2252's.

I have used a few tricks with my install to get them to spool but you still caught them for a second lol.

Again it points to a problem as even with the current best results you have it is still a lazy spool which again points to boost & wastegate leaks.
Your quote above confirms this also.



One trick I use is a powertek manual boost controller.
It's more than a bleed valve as it stops the wastegate seeing any pressure until it's time to open.
Normally a wastegate opens gradually which affects spool, they crack open a good 5 or so psi before there setting which starts to slow the spool down.
A typical bleed valve or boost controller does not change this behaviour!



However you must sort out the leak first as it's a fault, don't be tempted to use a controller to work around the problem.

I have seen many so called pro tuner's do this now & it's a bodge! The engine is never right!!!
Dave

Offline cossiemk2

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2013, 15:17:23 PM »
Well I removed the BOV now.
Gonna see how ir drives now.

I have seen those spring loaded valves. I might buy one and see if there's a difference.

Offline Dave

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2013, 21:12:05 PM »

Quote
I might buy one and see if there's a difference.

You need to find out the problem first. Something is causing it to spool at different RPM's.

A good install will work well with out any tricks, only then can you start to test then push things.

Otherwise your wasting your time because it won't get any better as you have not addressed the basic problem.
Dave

Offline cossiemk2

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2013, 17:47:45 PM »
I'll try disconnect the wastegate and see how it spools then.

He built in a boost safeguard, so I can't go above 1,3 bar otherwise the ignition will cut out.

Offline Marc

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2013, 10:30:28 AM »
As we talked about the mk5 escort 4x4/Mondeo 4x4 rear suspensoin you are using, could you post some pics? I think that setup has to be much better than the sierra's, but you never see it being used.


'90 Sapphire Cosworth 4x4
'91 Sapphire 2.9 24v RWD

Offline capri v8 driver

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2013, 19:25:37 PM »
I am more interested in pictures of the front suspension.
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

Offline cossiemk2

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2013, 17:51:35 PM »
This is for Marc:

Offline whiteestate

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2013, 21:02:58 PM »
As we talked about the mk5 escort 4x4/Mondeo 4x4 rear suspensoin you are using, could you post some pics? I think that setup has to be much better than the sierra's, but you never see it being used.

One of the main reasons is the frame cannot withstand that much power, being aluminium so I'm sure it requires a bit of modding to get a good diff to fit and make it more structurally sound from what i remember many moons ago when the rs2000 4x4 just came out.
"Praising what is lost makes the remembrance dear"

Offline cossiemk2

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2013, 21:42:13 PM »

"One of the main reasons is the frame cannot withstand that much power, being aluminium so I'm sure it requires a bit of modding to get a good diff to fit and make it more structurally sound from what i remember many moons ago when the rs2000 4x4 just came out."

True but the subframe is only used for the suspension.

The is diff is mounted to the chassis rails on 2 seperate beams.

I'll try and find/make some pics of it.

Offline whiteestate

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2013, 22:18:20 PM »
Ah that makes more sense in that case  :mellow:
Did you do that mod to mount separately as i was sure the standard setup the diff was mounted direct to the subframe iirc ? Its been ages since i saw one of these setups
"Praising what is lost makes the remembrance dear"

Offline cossiemk2

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2013, 06:39:13 AM »
The diff was never mounted on the frame.
The rear of the diff is suspended by a frame that mount on the side of the frame near the chsssis.

The front of the original diff us mounted to the tunnel by a rubber mounting.

Offline Grey

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2013, 08:05:21 AM »
I agree on what Dave says, it must be some kind of leak on the WG or some other problem. You should get a fast spool and you should have maximum boost at no later than 3000rpm. Also, its kind of weird that they use 40%!!! drive-line loss. In USA it is common to use 15%, but we use 12% on our plots since we do not use 9" rear axles and old heavy stuffs from the 70is. On 4x4 you might got 20% loss at max. This means that you only got about 260bhp which you can understand is to low. What you really got is 207whp, and at 0.8bar that is VERY BAD. You should at least be at 300whp+ and looking for about 500wnm+.

My tips is to:
1. Pressurize the intake side and look for leaks.
2. See when the WG opens, it should be moving when putting in 0,7 bar, and not move an inch until then. It should also open very fast from 0,7 to 0,8 bar when using a back pressure setup (see pic below).
3. You should have noticed an exhaust leak, but double check.
4. What is the ignition timing at the different RPMs? Problem could be a very low ignition timing to be safe from knocks and then you will get a wierd power plot. You should be able to run at least 20 degrees on RON95 on 7,5:1 compression ratio, 25 degrees on RON98. Guess you run a better fuel like the RON98? On E85 that we run, you can go for at least 20-25degrees on a std 12v 9,0:1 so 30 degrees on 0.8bar on yours should be safe when running E85.

How we do back pressure setup for WG to controll boost.



Offline AiToR51

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2013, 10:57:32 AM »
talking about dynos.. When I went with my 2.0 DOHC turbo (RWD) it was also a Maha one. And it gave around 35% of loss power and I said that was impossible and the man said me that the indicated loss in that dyno is the car loss + own dyno loss to do a real measure. So the "wheel power" is not good named. Probably on your power sheet happens the same.

Offline capri v8 driver

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2013, 19:13:21 PM »
Do you have pictures of the front suspension and / or parts list?
greetz Paul.

Capri V8 Driver.

Offline cossiemk2

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2013, 19:40:46 PM »
Not at the moment.
It's nothing really special actually.
I'll take some pics tomorrow and put them online.

Offline Dave

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Re: My Escort Mk2 is finally mapped.
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2013, 12:04:21 PM »
Quote
Also, its kind of weird that they use 40%!!! drive-line loss. In USA it is common to use 15%, but we use 12% on our plots since we do not use 9" rear axles and old heavy stuffs from the 70is. On 4x4 you might got 20% loss at max

Quote
talking about dynos.. When I went with my 2.0 DOHC turbo (RWD) it was also a Maha one. And it gave around 35% of loss power and I said that was impossible and the man said me that the indicated loss in that dyno is the car loss + own dyno loss to do a real measure. So the "wheel power" is not good named. Probably on your power sheet happens the same.


Grey mate forget about the wheel figures on MAHA dyno's or ones like them.
It's not a wheel figure like you understand it to be.

MAHA dyno's don't estimate the drag they actually measure it.

The tyre sits in between two small rollers & deforms a lot which creates huge drag!
Also drag increases with rotational speed not constant like most people or dyno calculations would have you believe.

I use a MAHA dyno, you set it up like most other dyno's but at the end of the run you dip in the clutch & let it coast down which don't take long as it's a resistance dyno.
It measures the drag from the clutch back including the huge drag at the tyres & then takes that away from the measured power that was calculated from a variable resistance setting calculated & controlled by time, then it gives you a wheel power figure but more importantly a crank figure that is actually measured rather than guessed!

For wheel figures they are useless for comparisons.

For crank figures they are probably the best chassis dyno on the market.

The MAHA 4wd dyno was developed in partnership with Audi/VW for their quattro cars & is the only dyno they recommend their cars to be used on. Even has an instruction manual & part numbers from Audi.

Also BMW, Merc. Porsche & Ferrari use them at the factories to test the high spec cars that come off the production line to see if they are within spec.
Makes them the only dyno they recommend too!

The crank figure will be with in 2% Jurgen unless the operator made a mistake which it don't look like it to me.
 
To sum up
MAHA wheel figures are useless for comparisons, crank figures are ultra accurate & are proven to be.


Dave

 

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