ok what do you think?

[Taps]

Cant see Micheal Schumacher doing 0-60's at Ford Fair myself      

Perhaps someone should send him a free ticket next year  

[capri v8 driver]

with the power to weight ratio you both had, going from 0 - 60 with ONE gear/ratio costs you MORE I'll wager.
You got the very best out of your car that day - micheal schumacher couldn't have bettered it - because the auto alows you to easily exract its best performance - it does it automticly, hence the name   . Asuming your oponents car had the same power and weight in his manual (and no faults), BUT Micheal schumacher was driving, you would have lost...trust me - you took the skill out of lauching tony...and your engine didn't miss a beat - thats why you did well....autos are slower than manuals CAN be but quicker than manuals often are because of the skill required to perform the optimum run to 60. Anyway, as Enzo Ferrari said - Its not how fast you go - its how you go fast  and you go fast with ease

ever raced a automatic on a dragstrip? it takes more skill to lauch a automatic, than a manual.  everyone can put there foot down on the trottle, but to take full advantage off a automatic takes more practice and feeling. if micheal schumacher would be behind the wheel, but never drove the car, even he would have lost. and even if he would have practiced whit his manual, he still loses about 1.2 seconds due to shifting the manual. whit a manual, thats designed for power shifting (straith cut gears ect), he would be something faster, but still lose.

tell this to the dragracers, and they laugh at you. the only advantage off a manual is that you have less losses in the gearbox. if the manuals where faster, even if it was 0.001 second, dragracer would use the manual. but it are still the car's whit automatic's that are winning on a dragstrip.

greetz paul.

capri v8 driver.

[Janspeedcapri]

First off F1 cars do not use automatic gearboxes - the drivers select gears manualy, meaning they choose the gear (out of 7) and when to select it. Cars that change gears for you and use oil pressure to engage are autos - cars that have servos or pneumatics driving the clutch and linkage are not.

Secondly where do you get 1.2 second for a gear change? I KNOW even i can shift quicker than that!
We all know that an auto changes quick compared to a lorry but thats irelevant in the 0-60 cos tones car makes no changes to 60 - it pulls from 3000 or whatever to 7000 or whatever. Simple mechanics fellas - given the same power - 2 close ratio gears will be quicker the one tall gear...and you know it realy  

Earlier i challenged Tony to name me an automatic production car that can go under 4 seconds - and i would name 6 production manuals that can go under 3 - got no reply but heres another challenge - name me one car where the manufacturers 0-60 time for the auto is quicker than for the manual - if what you and tony beleive is true, you should be able to right me a long list. If noone can, I'll take that as acceptance on your parts that your completely wrong  

[IansSaph]

Not to be picky but topcats 4i is no more a 4i than my saph.

[Tony]

this is not what i was asking in the first place,

1 i said F1 gearbox is almost auto,,ie, you dont move a gear lever, and with software could change automaticly,thats how they test them

2 i said gear change takes 0.6secs, a mt75 ford box requires 2 changes to get to 60mph hence pauls 1.2 secs...

3 you challenged me, yup and you got no answer as it was not what the post was started to find out.

a 24v doesn not rev to 7000rpm, it does change gear before it gets to 60mph, ow and also some lorrys are auto to now to (funny enough they are faster than equal manual lorrys)

i have said "i guess we should agree not to agree"
now can you take the hint?
that means your way off topic, its not helping and its pissing me off,

iansaph,, yeah correct but we have been driven off topic into an argument about autoboxs not being on dragsters,,,

[Taps]

Not to be picky but topcats 4i is no more a 4i than my saph.

Correct its a 3dr not a 4i  

Lighten up you lot  

[Janspeedcapri]

so do i carry on??????

or have i proven the auto is as good or better than manual to 60mph.


tony

THIS is what ive been addressing...seeing as the title of the thread is "WHAT DO YOU THINK?"   .  


and btw - no car fitted with an M-t 75 can hit 60 in second?    nobody here with a 24v or twinturbo and big wheels can do the run with one change? you SURE about that????  

[IansSaph]

Correct its a 3dr not a 4i  

Lighten up you lot  

hehe, all getting a little heated init.

its barely a 3dr either, its got about 3 original panels.    

2 i said gear change takes 0.6secs, a mt75 ford box requires 2 changes to get to 60mph hence pauls 1.2 secs...

2 gear changes would mean your in 3rd gear not 2nd, Nic.

Cant see Micheal Schumacher doing 0-60's at Ford Fair myself      

Perhaps someone should send him a free ticket next year  

LOL        missed that coment Taps! nice one,

[capri v8 driver]

and you need 2 gear shifts whit the mt 75 to go over 60 (3e gear).

you can chance the ratio's off the diff ( 3.14 ) and gearbox and use bigger tyres, and you can go in 2e gear over 60, but whit a 200 hp engine, but you will be slower, because you dont have enough torque.

its maybe beter just to chance the ratio's off the first, 2e and 3e gear in the mt 75 gearbox, whit a 2.8i t9, 3.65 and 1.81 2e gear you can go over 60 in the 2e gear. a t5 whit the 2.95 first and 1.94 2e gear would be even beter.

if i compair this whit a a4ld, whit a 2.474 1e gear and 1.474 2e gear, its easy to see the differance

as for automatic's (variomatic) in f1, they where banned by the fia after a few test (willams, ferrari) in 1994.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto

greetz paul.

capri v8 driver.

[Janspeedcapri]

:
2 gear changes would mean your in 3rd gear not 2nd, Nic.

Where did i say otherwise?   Paul and Tony are saying you can't get 60 out of second in mt75 and 24v - Tony is saying you therefore need to make 2 upshifts - in reply to me assuming 60 can be had form second - my audi did - in about 5.5 seconds and it was a 6 speed! guess these mt75 ratios are for towing  

[Mik]

Just to throw a spanner in the works, what do you think would be faster to my belly, a meat and potato pie or an egg and custard pie?

I just cant figure it out. I've tried all sorts of experiments, timing methods and still cant get a conclusive answer. Even tried linking them to a sat nav to try and plot trajectory but it just gives me heartburn.

Problems I've faced are temperature variations, (cant test accuratly with thermometer as it was last used up my bum and its going nowhere near any of my food)
Fat content of meat and potato pies (tried Hollands and Asda's own) causing stiction on my oesophegus.
Lip lickability of egg and custard causing time delays.
Distractions caused by constant re-runs of Top Gear on Dave.

Just cant do this on my own. I thought I was a competant speed eater but I'm out of my depth.

Heeeellllp

Mik

[IansSaph]

I know I get indigestion faster off the Meat and potatoe Pie but dependant on the age of the egg custard i know know that can get 'through' faster. interesting debate, needed to end the auto / manual debate.

New thread?

[capri v8 driver]

I know I get indigestion faster off the Meat and potatoe Pie but dependant on the age of the egg custard i know know that can get 'through' faster. interesting debate, needed to end the auto / manual debate.

New thread?

the end.

greetz paul.

capri v8 driver.

ps, tony, are you coming to european ford event this year?

[turboshed]

my last build was bloody quick up to 55 and then 3rd happened.i can get 75 out of 2nd now with 3.14 diffs,i do know of a tt with standard diffs hitting 60 in second but he had lifted the limiter to 7000rpm,think 0-60 was 3.6 i think

[mouldytbags]

i got 59.2mph at f/f on one of the sprints in second ,thats the one i failed on.

[RRX]

Can the MT75 do 60 in 2nd? the type 9 on my capri could just squeeze 60 but add in another change and that kills the 0-60. I know its not a ford but we have 3 caddy's at work, 1 manual and 2 DSG's. all have 104ps engines but the dsg's are later vans which are a tiny bit lighter but are no quicker than the manual and the dsg's are awfull to drive. Bad comparison i know but its the only comparison i can easily do

[Tony]

mt75 cannot get to 60 without that 3rd gear,, it spoils the box for me

tony

[mouldytbags]

neither can my T9

[capri v8 driver]

2.8i t9 can do 60 whit a 24v and a 3.44 diff ratio and 15 inch wheels. the gear ratio off the first and second gear are beter than the mt 75.

greetz paul.

capri v8 driver.

[Janspeedcapri]

I remeber hearing the 4 speed on early 2.8 cappas was good for sprints/traffic light racing...can't remember why/what the ratios were tho. I do remeber a bloke tellin me the ratios on the mt were for pullin caravans more than acceleration...shame. Can you get other gearsets for it? AND is this why the MT75 can handle more power? cos its don't stress itself? would that go out the window with taller low gears?

[SIDIBEAR]

My Mondeo diesel auto is quicker than the manual version, tested side by side up a M6 slip road, every gear change of his put me ahead by nearly half a car length  

With regards mine and MOB's 0-60 sprint. We agreed to hold it on the footbrake, release then on the throttle. The way the timing thingy is set up is to put a sensor against the rear of the tyre, as you move forward it starts the clock.
Taking your foot off the brake lets the car creep froward, hence our adjusted times.
My car is a 24v auto with cone filter and poxhaul injectors, standard Granada diff and 15" tyres. Weight wise compared to an XR4 I wouldn't know.

Top marks to Tony for trying something different that works, and congrats on the result.
We will have to have another go next year

[Janspeedcapri]

Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi 140 man - 0-60 - 9.2 seconds

Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi 140 auto - 0-60 10.6 seconds

[SIDIBEAR]

Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi 140 man - 0-60 - 9.2 seconds

Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi 140 auto - 0-60 10.6 seconds

Mines the 115 tdci, apparently they don't normally do an LX auto but mine was converted, so there shouldn't be any official specs on it.
And it wasn't from a standing start, we were both moving at around 30mph.

[Janspeedcapri]

115 tdci manual - 10.8

130 tdci "titanium" auto - 11.2

   

[Tony]

Janspeedcapri,, i cant get a grasp of why you keep posting and running autos down, some of the performance jap cars are faster auto.

book times are not to be believed, they are done on rolling roads in sterile conditions, this means the petrol engine looses out in the real world, desiels dont so much...

i tested a few new cars and found they cant acualy do what they say they do,,,
its known there is only one car that does have a true times published

any guesses????

[Janspeedcapri]

Janspeedcapri,, i cant get a grasp of why you keep posting and running autos down

tony, I OWN an auto - its my daily driver - so theres no axe to grind - just pointing out the facts as i see them....as given by car manufacturers. I feel ive made the case so I promise not to post anymore. sorry we seem to have locked horns over it. I love my auto volvo, and i will say this much to hopefully salvage somekind of an agreement - AUTOS ARE QUICKER, in practical terms for 90% of scenarios (for the reasons ive given previously)
I only learned recently from your posts elsewhere that you are running special torque converter, big oilcooler etc - I WOULD NOT be confident in taking you on at the sprint in an equally powerred manual  

Maybe you should change me handle on here to "Devils advocate" or the like..."smart ass" even   sorry pal

Nick

[capri v8 driver]

I only learned recently from your posts elsewhere that you are running special torque converter, big oilcooler etc - I WOULD NOT be confident in taking you on at the sprint in an equally powerred manual

the only thing tony did is make the gearbox beter whit fairly common replacement parts, like the convertor. it took him effort and time to find the right parts for the box and to sort it out, but he shows what can be done whit the v6 a4ld automatic.

like i mentioned before the car maker setup the automatic for comfort (lower stall, slower shift, and lower shift points). it does not mean that the box is perfect from the factory as standaard for the application tony needs it for. there is room for improvement. and he did very well on that, keeping in mind that most off the 2.9 v and a a4ld users don't do this.

whitout people like tony and others, stock factory cars will be stock. whats the fun in that?

greetz paul.

capri v8 driver.

[Tony]

nick

we aint locked horns!! remember i am admin and i could have booted ya out of you had
joking,,
your ok chap!

what i hopped to do is show the auto can be made faster at a budget, i know a few people who love cars yet are challenged, this project has made it possible for them to have a fast modded car yet still use special controls if needed, (no reason disabled people cant enjoy our "sport")
think i did it,,,(smug git now)

paul.. many thanks for the comments.
we have known each other a few years and both taken some abuse for our ideas in the past,,, funny they all seem to have worked in the end!!
tony

[Dave]

Trouble is a auto built for performance is terrible for mpg & driveability.

A auto is quicker than a normal manual gearbox in a straight line, there really isn't anything to prove as it's proved every day in all sorts of performance cars.

Again a road car is a compromise where a auto is concerned.

The potential is there but not used as other things suffer to much.


Think this is what Tone wanted to prove.

I would agree most road cars fitted with auto's are slower than a manual but they do have the potential to be faster.   but of course it takes work & money

[IansSaph]

what i hopped to do is show the auto can be made faster at a budget, i know a few people who love cars yet are challenged, this project has made it possible for them to have a fast modded car yet still use special controls if needed, (no reason disabled people cant enjoy our "sport")
think i did it,,,(smug git now)

My brother is 'forced' to use an auto due to a disability, sadly his disability means he is financialy unable to enjoy the "sport" we all love. I've toy'ed with the idea of an auto project for him to 'borrow'

maybe future "Project RWD Mondeo st24 TT" could be auto.